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What if, instead of slavery, the United States had murdered all of the African Americans? What if, instead of relocating some Native American tribes, they were completely wiped out? This annihilation is essentially what happened with the Armenians in the early 1900's and the Kurds in the 1980's.
Genocides of Armenians and Kurds
Seeded on Sat Oct 2, 2010 7:37 AM EDT
Article Source: www.hyperhistory.net- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
- Public Discussion (74)
Interesting essay on the similarities of the Armenian and Kurd genocides. Turkey still denies it was Genocide, though the major countries of the world disagree. It was Genocide.
- 16 votes
#1 - Sun Oct 3, 2010 10:32 AM EDTWell, I'd say reducing the number of the original population of North America from something around 10-15 million in 1492 to just under 1 million by 1900 qualifies as genocide, or at least a really good try at it.
- 2 votes
Not sure what that has to do with Armenians and Kurds which is what this seed is about. Perhaps you should seed something about your topic somewhere else if that's what you'd like to discuss.
- 9 votes
Not sure what that has to do with Armenians and Kurds
Genocide is not a contest to see who suffers the most. We are discussing Armenians and Kurds. The fact that I am a Jew and my family suffered in the Holocaust does not diminish what we discuss her about the Atrocities committed by the Turks. I would welcome the opportunity to learn and discuss the Genocide of Native Peoples in North America. Please write or seed some Articles that focus on it. It is a subject that needs to be explored here on Newsvine.
- 10 votes
I am part native American, and that is one of the reasons that I am so passionate about all Genocides. One does not diminish another, it only proves that we have much to learn.
- 8 votes
I'm reminded of the scene from Max von Sydow's captious, cynical character in Woody Allen's "Hannah and Her Sisters:"
You missed a very dull TV show about Auschwitz. More gruesome film clips.
And more intellectuals declaring their mystification...over the systematic murder of millions.They can never answer the question: "How could it happen?" It's the wrong question. The question is: "Why doesn't it happen more often?"
- 9 votes
They can never answer the question: "How could it happen?" It's the wrong question. The question is: "Why doesn't it happen more often?"
Good question.
Actually, i think it happens a bit more than many people realize. Some of it isn't mentioned because at the time its not considered to be "politically correct"
Or-- there are deliberate attempts to cover it up, ass the Turks have done with this one.
- 9 votes
Actually, i think it happens a bit more than many people realize. Some of it isn't mentioned because at the time its not considered to be "politically correct"
It just happened this spring with the Uzbeks, and very little was done to stop it. I don't think it has anything to do with Political Correctness. I think that it has to do with apathy.
- 8 votes
I don't think it has anything to do with Political Correctness. I think that it has to do with apathy.
Maybe different things in different situations-- and maybe sometimes a combination of various factors? In some cases political correctness. In other apathy. And in some cases people aren't really too aware of fit.
But with theUzbeks: many people don't know much about them. But it was reported in the news. I think people ignored the story-- so I guess its apathy. (and another factor perhaps-- maybe many peopl felt powerless to do anything anyway?)
- 8 votes
There was much reporting on the Uzbeks in the European Papers, very little in the American papers. I guess that doesn't speak well of our journalism. I guess it's like this
If it doesn't concern the US, the US isn't concerned.
- 7 votes
I'll see your Uzbeks and raise you last year's demolition of the Tamil Tigers along with the massacre and displacement of lots and lots of innocent Tamil civilians by the Sinhalese Buddhist majority government of Sri Lanka. You barely hear a peep of the "disproportionate force," "genocide," "ethnic cleansing," or "apartheid state" used by the Sri Lankan government against its minority Tamil population from the Newsvine community now do you?
- 8 votes
Right Nadia. It's because the NewsVine community is totally fixated udeservedly on only one situation in the world, and refuse to see a whole forest, looking with blinkers at only one tree. The same seems to go for the UN and Human Rights organizations. In many cases it is truly deliberate to diffuse and deflect attention away from more deserving targets.
- 9 votes
With so many real genocides going on in the world, it's sad and tragic the farce that is the U.N. Peackeepers and the UNHRC who are both complicit in it and have blood on their hands.
- 8 votes
The Armenian genocide was just that-- a genocide.
Here's what President Obama said on the subject (there defintitely was a Turkish genocide committed against the Armenians):
"Senator Biden and myself both acknowledge, for those of you that aren't aware, that there was a genocide that did take place, against the Armenian people.
- 14 votes
#2 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 5:19 PM EDTFor those who would like a link to the above Obama quote .
He also said :
It is one of these situations where we have seen a constant denial on the part of the Turkish government
- 11 votes
For those who would like a link to the above Obama quote .
Thanks-- good link! :-)
- 12 votes
I just posted that link on another article. It is the first time that the American government has confronted head on the Turkish government for this crime against humanity. It's about time.
- 12 votes
first time that the American government has confronted head on the Turkish government for this crime against humanity.
I understand that most major Countries in the world have declared it a Genocide. I would like to see more support for pressuring Turkey to acknowledge this. Turkey has been complaining about delayed entry into the EU, I believe. They need to understand that the world will not forget the Atrocities committed against the Armenians. The World is also looking at the situation of the Kurdish people. These are topics Turkey can no longer afford to hide or cover up with denials.
- 9 votes
From the seeded article :
The Turks blamed their shrinking empire on European powers who had bypassed the dying Ottoman Empire in their global trade. The Turks took their rage out on the Armenians, who were friendly with the Europeans. Like Hilter, who blamed the Jews for Germany's ills, the Muslim Turks blamed the Christian Armenians for their own self imposed destruction. This is why the Turks committed such an appaling genocide.
- 13 votes
#3 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 9:50 PM EDTThe true horror to the fact that this genocide is not remembered is what it actually caused. Hitler looked at the worlds reaction to this genocide and saw none. He said this:
Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter—with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command—and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad—that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness—for the present only in the East—with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_quote
This is a direct translation.
When countries don't own up to their past, they are doomed to repeat this again.
- 14 votes
#4 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 10:40 PM EDTWho, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?
Hitler said that?
Wow!
That's amazing-- appaerently Hitler himself was inspired, to some degree, by the Turkish genocide of Armenians! (or at least the fact that the Turks could get away with it!)
- 14 votes
Looks like the lessons of history are not just for the wise . :~(
- 13 votes
Think about it. If the world had not let this gone unnoticed, maybe there would have been no Hitler. And what people have to remember is that Hitler killed 12 million people, systematically, never mind how many men died fighting the war.
- 12 votes
"....history lessons are NOT just the for the "WHY's",
but,
"history MUST name the "WHO's"
!'~{
- 12 votes
"history MUST name the "WHO's"
We're already up to our necks in moral relativism. Do we drown in it?
- 7 votes
Doc,
I think that Mork is saying that Turkey must come clean with their past with the Armenians. That would be the who's.
- 9 votes
An important item with an ominous side and implications regarding radicalism we're seeing in America.
- 10 votes
#5 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:19 PM EDTA Mac,
I agree. And if you remember that I wrote an article called Racism in America. People who believe in the idea that their people are better than another, and dehumanize them, we do a disgrace to everyone that has died in every genocide that has happened in the past and nothing has been learned!
- 9 votes
If I may add, our military risked, and continue to risk, their lives daily to stop tribal genocide in the Middle East. This is a deeply disturbing, yet timely, seed and thank you for reminding us of the atrocities that continue to occur on this planet of ours.
- 9 votes
#6 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:29 PM EDTEven more timely since Turkey would like to join the EU. There would be no EU without Germany first coming to terms with their past. It's time for Turkey to do the same.
- 9 votes
they should but they won't
Then the EU should think about whether or not they really want a country like that in. It doesn't speak well to it's character.
- 7 votes
There would be no EU without Germany first coming to terms with their past.
This is extremely important. Germany didn't just pass it off and say, "oh well, it's not our fault, the Nazis did it". No, they had to except a national responsibility for all the events and circumstances that led to the Terrible Holocaust, and World war that took the lives of so many. Turkey and some of it's apologists and genocide deniers are taking the same path as the Holocaust deniers. They try to pass it off on the "Ottoman Empire", rather then dealing with the fact that Turkey was the core of the Ottoman Empire and the main protagonist of the Genocide. Just as Nazi Germany was the core of that "Empire" Responsible for the Holocaust and 75 million(about) deaths of WW2. It was the greatest Generation that fought against that evil, but also the greatest generation that made peace after. Acceptance of responsibility is the first step to healing and reconciliation. Turkey, in it's belligerence has prevented any hope toward taking these steps. it's no wonder the EU is delaying their entry, IMHO.
- 5 votes
Turkey and some of it's apologists and genocide deniers are taking the same path as the Holocaust deniers. They try to pass it off on the "Ottoman Empire", rather then dealing with the fact that Turkey was the core of the Ottoman Empire and the main protagonist of the Genocide. Just as Nazi Germany was the core of that "Empire" Responsible for the Holocaust and 75 million(about) deaths of WW2.
And this is at the core of the problem here. Passing the buck. Looking for excuses. Germany was forced to look at their past, but in the end, they gained a lot. They are a better people for doing so. I have seen it with my own eyes. But Turkey, and by Turkey, I mean the Government and not the people, won't own up to it. But even the people will gain. It will raise their level of conscience, and make them more aware of things going on in their country now, that they should be standing up against, like trying to get the last remnants of the Greek orthodox church removed as well as the last of that population, which I don't think the average Turk knows about.
- 7 votes
What I don't understand I guess about the present day Turkish denial of genocide is that if the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians didn't have anything to do with present day Turkey, then why are they so sensitive about it?
If present day Germany can acknowledge as a nation that the holocaust was indeed a genocide even though the Third Reich perpetrated it and not the government that followed it after World War II, why can't present day Turkey acknowledge that the genocide against Armenians did indeed take place at the hands of the government that preceded the present day government up until the end of World War I?
- 8 votes
#7 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:34 PM EDTWhat I don't understand I guess about the present day Turkish denial of genocide is that if the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians didn't have anything to do with present day Turkey, then why are they so sensitive about it?
Yes-- it certainly does seem to be a case of "Methinks the lady doth protest too much".
- 10 votes
No, it has to do with reparations. If Turkey admits this, they would have to return a lot of land to the Armenians. That is why, the Turks took a lot of energy to remove much of the architecture left by the Armenians. It was as if they never existed there.
- 11 votes
What I don't understand I guess about the present day Turkish denial of genocide is that if the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians didn't have anything to do with present day Turkey, then why are they so sensitive about it?
Ya' beat me to the punch. This is the question I've been asking for years. Why are the Turks so vociferous in their "outrage," "condemnation" -- denial -- of history? Look at Germany. As a whole, with some exceptions, this largest of European nations has done quite well in owning up to its history.
- 8 votes
I have spent a lot of time in Germany, since my husband worked for BMG/RCA. I found that the Germans not only have done well as a people, but that they truly care about what they did, and they are interested in learning about the people that were murdered. They have grown as a nation for the better.
- 10 votes
Whenever I visit Israel, I'm amazed at how many German kids are there to visit, learn, work on kibbutz's, etc... It does my heart glad.
- 8 votes
Whenever I visit Israel, I'm amazed at how many German kids are there to visit, learn, work on kibbutz's, etc... It does my heart glad.
See, I never knew that. That is truly amazing and very wonderful. Healing can happen, when we make peace with those we have harmed.
- 9 votes
Perrie #7.2 ,
the Turks took a lot of energy to remove much of the architecture left by the Armenians.
Do you have some links for that info ?
- 9 votes
Yes I do
In the genocide whole cities lost their Armenian populations, including the historic Armenian city of Van. More than 50,000 Armenians were killed and the city itself was almost entirely flattened (apart from two mosques) and the new Kurdish city of Van rebuilt nearby. Armenian property not destroyed during the massacres was transferred to the ownership of the Turkish state in September 1915.
In the late nineteenth century and the years that followed the First World War, Greeks and Turks also died in their thousands in forced population exchanges. Monuments and towns were razed. The entire northern part of the ancient and once beautiful coastal city of Smyrna (now Izmir), which included the Greek and Armenian quarters, was burned in September 1922: every remaining mosque in Athens that had not been destroyed in previous anti-Muslim attacks was later demolished. The Armenian genocide and the destruction accompanying the mutual expulsions were a devastating cultural as well as human loss. The early Christian tradition of Armenia had produced a unique architecture characterized by worked tufa stone rising in domes and spires. The essential verticality of forms and the use of pointed arches, ribbed vaults and clustered piers prefigured the ecclesiastic architecture of European Gothic. Medieval Armenian kingdoms built on their tradition, creating spectacular churches and monasteries. Its craftsmen exported their stone-working skills to other religious and ethnic groups throughout the region.
A survey, not in itself comprehensive, prepared in 1914 by the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople listed 2,549 religious sites under its control, including more than 200 monasteries and 1,600 churches. Many were destroyed in the process of the genocide but many more have since been vandalized, flattened or converted to mosques or barns. In contrast to Kristallnacht, where the destruction of architecture offered a warning of worse to come, the Turks have continued to remove, stone by stone, the evidence of millennia of Armenian architectural and art history following the mass murder and exile of the Armenian people. It was only in the 1960s that Armenian and other architectural scholars began the politically and physically dangerous task of recording and rescuing what remains of 1,800 years of Armenian ecclesiastical heritage. A 1974 survey identified 913 remaining churches and monastic sites in Turkey in various conditions. At half of these sites the buildings had vanished utterly. Of the remainder, 252 were ruined. Just 197 survived in anything like a usable state.
- 9 votes
I have heard about this most of my life. My grandparents remembered it. This article has my vote.
- 8 votes
#8 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 12:18 AM EDTDowser,
That is truly amazing. I had never heard of it until I had an Armenian Boyfriend in College. How did you come to hear of it?
- 9 votes
i may have heard of it, but i do not think so. thank you for bringing this important matter to light.
- 6 votes
#9 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 12:31 AM EDTThanks for the history lesson. I never knew much about that genocide, but later in life I had a close Armenian friend who did let me know a little about it but I did not push him to tell me more because I could see how much pain he suffered even to talk about the effect it had on his family. I am surprised that those newsviners who support Turkey so vociferously have not to the time of my posting this had much to say about it.
- 8 votes
#10 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 12:54 AM EDTI am surprised that those newsviners who support Turkey so vociferously have not to the time of my posting this had much to say about it.
I'm not surprised. There was only denial in a previous article done by stone, but that article got collapsed. It is important that this is not suppressed. The ugly truth needs to be brought to light. We must not forget what happened to these people. It was the beginning of all modern day genocides.
- 8 votes
Turkey spends a lot of time, effort, and money attempting to suppress anything that even remotely refers to the Armenian genocide as a genocide both inside and outside of Turkey. Within Turkey they often use Article 301 of their penal code to intimidate, harass, shut down, and imprison anyone or any institution or organ of the press who dares question the Turkish government's official line on anything:
In an effort to silence the press and drown out media criticism, Turkey's government imposes its controversial Article 301 measure. Any journalist or editor who "insults" or "criticizes" the state could face a year in prison. Prison sentences were initially three years but Turkey agreed to reduce sentences after pressure from the European Commission.
Turkey, who wants to join the EU, is known for its hostile treatment of the press. Their prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has denounced media and called on the Turkish people to boycott newspapers. The International Press Institute (IPI) is lobbying EU Commission leaders to pressure Turkey's reforms and hopes any EU expansion project will consider press freedoms as a prerequisite.
- 6 votes
There was only denial in a previous article done by stone, but that article got collapsed.
I guess when they had no valid argument to counter the truth, the only thing they could do is censor. The Germans were not such cowards, as they faced the truth, admitted it and dealt with it is a mature fashion. They are the better for it.
- 9 votes
It is very important to remember these atrocities... And to do what we can to bring about justice and reconciliation. If we allow ourselves and others to forget, then this horrific history will be repeated.
At the end the author said,
One thing is for certain, God is all wise and all just as he builds up and tears down nations for His glory.
Hearing about these genocides, I find it difficult to comprehend that...
Then the author said this...
What must be done to prevent these types of atrocities of unwanted minorities from being murdered? If everyone followed God's commandments, it would be fairly simple: Love your neighbor as yourself (Matt 22:39).
Now THAT I understand... and I whole heartedly agree!
- 8 votes
#11 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 10:14 AM EDTHi Mal,
What must be done to prevent these types of atrocities of unwanted minorities from being murdered? If everyone followed God's commandments, it would be fairly simple: Love your neighbor as yourself (Matt 22:39).
Now THAT I understand... and I whole heartedly agree!
I am sure that you would agree with that. Let me take the time to point out to those who do not know your fine body of work, but Mal has been writing for a very long time ( and I fear that he has given up hope) about the "Golden Rule" and how to treat one another.
If you haven't read many of Mal's wonderful articles on this subject, please visit his homepage. It very much goes to the heart of this matter!
- 9 votes
Contrary to the breed of his favourite dogs, Perrie is right that Mal is not at all mute when it comes to that.
- 9 votes
This is true. Mal speaks his mind. It's one of the best traits of his breed.
- 8 votes
Thank you all for continuing this discussion. I am also learning about this tragic part of our History. These discussions really help to inform me about the Suffering of a people so similar to that of my family during the Holocaust in Europe. I have had people tell me that. "Jews think they are better, or that they suffered more then others", "That's why they make such a big deal about the Holocaust", I tell you truly, The world should never forget. This is something I personally feel Jews must do for our own people, but also that it should not happen to others. Everyone should further the cause of their own group or people, yes. But also as an aspiration to others who experience something similar. If anything, Other people who suffer a genuine Genocide against their people such as in the case of the Armenians, should learn as much as they can from the Jewish experience. Use it to bring Justice and reconciliation to their cause.
- 8 votes
#12 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 10:26 AM EDTstonesoup the holocaust was a horrible, terrible thing to happen to humans. I watched a program about lisa kudrows family when she found out what had happened to her family if i think about it it gives me nightmare's. That is not a way to treat a human being, worse then an animal. All genocides are atrocities against humans period.
- 7 votes
mama,
I saw that show, too. It was a very hard for me to watch. You see, my grandmother was a Polish Catholic who married a Jew. Her own people turned her in for marring a English Jew. In an odd turn of events, it was actually some German Officers, that my grandfather befriended, that got them out of the country and into Russia, where they survived. But my grandfather lost his sister and her children in one of the concentration camps, because she was afraid to leave Poland with him, because she thought that her husband, my Grandfather's business partner, who was still in England, wouldn't be able to find them. My grandfather never got over this, and my grandmother died a conflicted woman about how her own people could have done this to her.
- 8 votes
perrie that is just so tragic. i wonder about distant family that stayed behind in Hungary how they fared. I had some Jewish relatives i found out through ancestory.
- 6 votes
mama,
That is most unfortunate. There were almost no Hungarian Jews left after the war.
You did that ancestory thing. Did you like it? I was going to do it, too, but wondered if it was worth it.
- 8 votes
Perrie i tried it free for 14 days, then i signed up for awhile. i cacnel as I cant afford it at the moment but all my info is still there, it was way cool. that is how i found the jewish link from the jew-gen link.
- 4 votes
That's really good to know mama!
I think I'm going to sign up for it for a while, now. There is a lot missing on my mom's side of the family and I would like to research it. Thanks for the positive review
- 4 votes
welcome. i was able to find out when my grandpa on my dads side was born right around the time of the civil war. and his dads name. so cool.
- 4 votes
I found this info. here.
- 6 votes
#13 - Tue Oct 5, 2010 11:26 AM EDTThanks Mama!
I hope people actually take the time and read the link.
I found this there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
It's all about the denial of the Armenian Genocide.
It's important to get educated.
- 8 votes
perrie education is how we stay strong, the uneducated are the ones who are manipulated.
- 6 votes
education is how we stay strong, the uneducated are the ones who are manipulated.
You are 100% right but sadly, many people are getting manipulated.
- 9 votes
education is how we stay strong, the uneducated are the ones who are manipulated.
You are 100% right but sadly, many people are getting manipulated.
Then, contrary to their beliefs, they are not educated, only programmed.
- 9 votes
I prefer to refer to them as willful stooges.
Or-- "Useful idiots"
- 8 votes
"Beneficial Buttheads" ?
"Willing Wankers" ?
"Abetting A$$wipes" ?
- 8 votes
I like that word sheeple.....
Got to remember that! It's a goodie.
- 7 votes
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